## Culture and Religion

A world view where the guide for society is based on human nature,
not on ancient scriptures.  Home  or Topic Groups

# Andromeda Galaxy Group has Blue Shift - Update

This is  a follow-up to the 3/18 post about the Andromeda galaxy group being unique. There are no blue shift objects in the universe outside of our Local Group.
This exercise checks the local group.
I found a reference for the local group. It had 35 objects with their right ascension, declination, relative velocity, estimated distance.

Of the 35, 16 had blue shift, 11 had red shift, 8 were missing that value in the reference.
Among those missing are And I, And II, And III, And V, And VI, so I can only wonder if they were not sampled due to proximity to M31.
I did not attempt to calculate distances between 2 objects  based on differences in RA and in declination, along with their respective distances from Earth.
There are several objects with a red shift and they are probably  not near Andromeda.

There are several objects with a blue shift and they are apparently relatively near Andromeda.
This is just a coarse analysis of the local group motions.
Perhaps someday these distances can be calculated.

Andromeda galaxy M31 has a relative velocity of -205
according to the reference.

( https://arxiv.org/ftp/astro-ph/papers/9908/9908050.pdf )

However another references(wikipedia) has M31 at -301 km/sec, not -205. That is not a big difference but I have no way to resolve a difference and  with no way to determine the 'correct' source, plus the author might have used resources more accurate than Wikipedia.  I left the velocity data as published.
I can provide only what I can find.

I tried to change the positions in the reference document to differences to Andromeda, to make that simple comparison easier by the general area.
This exercise is only relative velocities and relative positions.
This is a preliminary analysis based on what is available.

key:
Vr = velocity as relative value; + is red shift or recession.
Vr=-  value is blue shift
D2 = distance to object, in Mpc
Vr=M = missing data

DIG is dwarf Irregular Galaxy
DS is dwarf spherical galaxy

This is the spread around the local group, relative to M31, starting at the opposite point in azimuth so M31 is in the middle of the list. There are 35 objects in the reference.
Its right ascension is 00h 42m; its declination is 41d 16m
AD values are from object to M31, to nearest hour or degree

D+ value indicates object has higher declination than M31.
name / position relative to M31 / vel. / distance
DDO 199 A-9h D+26d Vr=-247 D2=0.06blue
DDO 208   Ah Dd  Vr=-293  D2= 0.08blue
sagittarius-DS   A-6h D71d  Vr=+142  D2= 0.03red +d
SAG-DIG   A-5h D-58d  Vr=-79  D2= 1.40blue
NGC 6822   Ah D-55d  Vr=-56  D2= 0.50blue
DDO 210   Ah Dd  Vr=-131  D2= 1.02blue
Tucana-DS  A-4h D-105d Vr=M D2=0.87miss -d
And VII  A-1h  D9d  Vr= M  D2=0.69miss
DDO 216  Ah Dd  Vr=-182  D2= 0.76blue
And VI  A-1h D-17d  Vr=M  D2= 0.83miss
DDO221  A0h D-56d  Vr=-120  D2= 0.93blue
UGC 192  A0h D+18d  Vr=-344  D2= 0.66blue
NGC 185  A0h D-7d  Vr=-193  D2= 0.66blue
And III  A0h D-5d  Vr=M  D2= 0.76miss
NGC 185  A0h D+7d  Vr=-202  D2= 0.22blue
NGC 205  A0h D0d  Vr=-244  D2= 0.76blue
M32  A0h D0d  Vr=-205  D2= 0.76blue
M31 Andromeda   A0h D0d  Vr=-301  D2= 0.76     blue M31
And I   A0h D-3d  Vr=M  D2= 0.81miss
SMC a0h d-113d  Vr=148 D2= 0.06blue
Sculptor   A+1h D-74d  Vr=+110  D2= 0.09red-d
LGS 3   A+1h D-20d  Vr=-286  D2= 0.81blue
IV1613   A+1h D-39d  Vr=-232  D2= 0.72blue
And V   A+1h D+6d  Vr=M  D2= 0.81miss
And II   A+1h D-8d  Vr=M  D2= 0.70miss
M33   A+1h D-11d  Vr=-181  D2= 0.79      M33blue
PhoenixDS   A+1h D-85d  Vr=M  D2= 0.4miss
Fornax DS   A+2h D-75d  Vr=+53  D2= 0.14red-d
LMC   A+5h D-110d  Vr=+275  D2= 0.05red-d
Carina   A+6h D-91d  Vr=+223  D2= 0.10red-d
Leo A DDO 69   A+9h D-71d  Vr=+24  D2= 0.69   red-d
Leo I DS   A+10h D-29d  Vr=+287  D2= 0.25   red =-d
Sextans DS   A+10h D-42d  Vr=+226  D2= 0.09red +h
Leo II DDO 93   A+11h D-19d  Vr=+76  D2= 0.21red +h
UrsaMi DDO 199   A+15h D+26d  Vr=-247  D2= 0.06  blue
Draco DDO 208   A+17h D+26d  Vr=-293  D2= 0.08 blue
sagittarius-DS   A+18h D-71d  Vr=+142 D2= 0.03 red-d

red +h indicates RA diff is many = +h
red-d indicates dec is many -d

find references to these 2 recent additions to the Local Group but they are not in the reference; I found their data in Wikipedia or online
they are not included in the summary above to distinguish data from one source from this later separate reference
and also these appear distant
UGCA 86 A+4h D+26d Vr=+67 D2=2.60red far
Tucana II A+22h D-105d Vr=+130 D2=0.98red-d

I did not actually try to plot all the objects in space.
Maybe my estimation  of distance in 3-D was  incorrect.

Regardless of whether objects are close enough there is an apparent pattern.
I find it incredible all blue shift objects among the entire universe are in the Local Group.

The obvious question is how can this be?
Is this a case of intrinsic blue shift or some phenomenon caused by the local 'space'?

My comment:

Perhaps you can explain to me how one listens or looks back in time - and whether that has any meaning.
When we talked with astronauts on the moon there were noticeable delays. I don't recall we had to deal with talking back in time because of the moon distance.

His response:

something ten billion lightyears
Shows newly small forming galaxies in the early young universe
Nothing to do with sound and little effect with astronauts

My response:

Halton Arp showed  high red shift objects are the youngest. As they move away from their parent galaxy they grow and their red shift reduces.
High red shifts are not back in time but a reflection of their age. As their red shift drops astronomers make the simple assumption they are getting closer to earth. The observation of high red shift objects in front of low red shift objects clearly falsifies that assumption.
Red shifts are more complicated than assumed.